I found some good discussion posts about the
Avengers in general and the Black Widow in particular, from cleolinda
and Jim C. Hines:
So I Saw the Avengers
Those who are about to be flamed salute you
Black Widow and Power
(Related) Criticizing our Fandoms
I came away from the movie with a different interpretation of Natasha in general and those scenes in particular than these two writers did, but I am glad they made their posts.
While I’ve written what I see as the problem with this scene here, my take was that Natasha was playing Loki during the whole of the interrogation scene. When she turns away, it’s not because he’s touched a nerve, it’s because she wouldn’t get away with it otherwise. I see her horrified reaction her as very much like her fear when she’s being threatened by the Russians— the ease with which she takes them down strongly indicates that she was faking being afraid. Similarly, I thought she was faking all of her vulnerability.
And in that context, this scene becomes a major triumph for Natasha and a major loss for Loki. Loki shows his misogynistic colors, as were hinted at in “Thor,” obliquely threatens Natasha with death and rape at the hands of her best friend, and then calls her what amounts to “whining cunt.” And Natasha, as I read her, was unmoved. It’s as if Loki’s saying “Hahaha, I know what your vulnerabilities are because you’re a woman! So I can throw frothy misogynistic rage at you and it will upset you!” And Natasha takes his assumptions about her, uses them against him, and gives him the metaphorical finger. His loss of control, his misogyny, unseats him.
Similarly, I didn’t see Natasha’s power or skillset being bound up in gendered manipulation, in making herself vulnerable and exposing herself to torture, as Jim C. Hines did. We do see her do that, but her other powers are equally, if not far more, impressive: she beats up three men while tied to a chair, she flies fighter jets, she’s comfortable and competent in hand-to-hand combat (when Coulson calls her, we see a flash on the screen of her and Hawkeye in a firefight), she thinks on her feet, and she can hold her own with the likes of Captain America. She’s also brave and audacious, throwing herself into situations that make multiple male Avengers go, “What are you doing?” She doesn’t need to make herself vulnerable in order to achieve something; it’s just one more tool in her arsenal.
The fact that Joss Whedon takes delight in the misogynistic slur in his script, however, is gross. I’m getting the impression that Joss Whedon is kind of Steven Moffat 2.0.
ETA: Many of the commenters on the “Black Widow and Power” post said the same thing I was trying to say, but better. I recommend the comments on that post in particular.
So I Saw the Avengers
Those who are about to be flamed salute you
Black Widow and Power
(Related) Criticizing our Fandoms
I came away from the movie with a different interpretation of Natasha in general and those scenes in particular than these two writers did, but I am glad they made their posts.
While I’ve written what I see as the problem with this scene here, my take was that Natasha was playing Loki during the whole of the interrogation scene. When she turns away, it’s not because he’s touched a nerve, it’s because she wouldn’t get away with it otherwise. I see her horrified reaction her as very much like her fear when she’s being threatened by the Russians— the ease with which she takes them down strongly indicates that she was faking being afraid. Similarly, I thought she was faking all of her vulnerability.
And in that context, this scene becomes a major triumph for Natasha and a major loss for Loki. Loki shows his misogynistic colors, as were hinted at in “Thor,” obliquely threatens Natasha with death and rape at the hands of her best friend, and then calls her what amounts to “whining cunt.” And Natasha, as I read her, was unmoved. It’s as if Loki’s saying “Hahaha, I know what your vulnerabilities are because you’re a woman! So I can throw frothy misogynistic rage at you and it will upset you!” And Natasha takes his assumptions about her, uses them against him, and gives him the metaphorical finger. His loss of control, his misogyny, unseats him.
Similarly, I didn’t see Natasha’s power or skillset being bound up in gendered manipulation, in making herself vulnerable and exposing herself to torture, as Jim C. Hines did. We do see her do that, but her other powers are equally, if not far more, impressive: she beats up three men while tied to a chair, she flies fighter jets, she’s comfortable and competent in hand-to-hand combat (when Coulson calls her, we see a flash on the screen of her and Hawkeye in a firefight), she thinks on her feet, and she can hold her own with the likes of Captain America. She’s also brave and audacious, throwing herself into situations that make multiple male Avengers go, “What are you doing?” She doesn’t need to make herself vulnerable in order to achieve something; it’s just one more tool in her arsenal.
The fact that Joss Whedon takes delight in the misogynistic slur in his script, however, is gross. I’m getting the impression that Joss Whedon is kind of Steven Moffat 2.0.
ETA: Many of the commenters on the “Black Widow and Power” post said the same thing I was trying to say, but better. I recommend the comments on that post in particular.
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